Monday, December 27, 2010

I'm frustrated. Maybe you can help me. :)

For quite awhile I've understood (at least to some extent) that modesty is important. From what I remember, the first time that the idea occurred to me was the time when my mom's friend made a comment about my shorts. I was about... seven or six, I think. I had this pair of bright pink shorts that I really loved. They stopped several inches above my knee.

So I got rid of them.

I think it was a few months later that I found a top that showed an inch or two of my belly. I don't remember who told me that it was immodest, but eventually I got rid of it for that reason.

So basically, I thought, as long as I don't show my belly, and don't show much of my legs, I'm modest. Fine.

But eventually it became clear to me that it's much, much more complicated than that.

On a message forum that I participate in every now and then, there was a discussion on modesty. A very, very lengthy discussion. As it went on, I began to realize that a lot of the clothing of which my wardrobe consisted is considered immodest by a lot of Christians.

So I got rid of it, of course.

Probably one of the main things was tight clothing. Someone posted that such clothing is immodest.

Fine, you can accuse me of having no brain if you want to. But to be perfectly honest, I had never really considered the idea that something tight, or even form-fitting like a simple button-down shirt, could be immodest.

There went about 75% of my wardrobe.

Then I was told that layering (LAYERING) of all things makes you look like you're just doing it because you have to. Supposedly, it "sends a message" saying that if you could, you'd just wear the immodest article by itself. You're only wearing the thing under it because you have to.

Wait. What?

That's ridiculous.

Obviously, a person who believes this has no idea how difficult it is to dress modestly (at least for me). Well, I'll try to help you understand, sir. :)

If a girl really wants to avoid showing cleavage, stomach, and leg (and to avoid "showing your shape," as I'll get to in a moment), it seems to me that most people have three options:

1. Sew your own clothes.

2. Sell all of your possessions in order to hire a seamstress.

3. Wear a burka.

4. Layer.

Oops! That was four. ;)

We try - we really do. But most of the above is either impossible or over-the-top, in my opinion.

Back to the tightness issue.
The descriptions that people give is too vague for me, possibly due to that brainless thing again. How tight is too tight?
Someone on the modesty thread asserted that if it shows your shape, it is too tight.

Uh...
A loose t-shirt shows your shape. If you don't believe me, Google "girl in loose t shirt." It's, uh, still pretty obvious that she has a chest.

So, I guess I'm supposed to nail shoulder-straps to a barrel.

Oh, wait a second! That would be immodest, because the thin straps allow you to see part of your shoulders! ;)

And the barrel would have to be long enough to cover your knees, of course.

But wearing a barrel could be considered odd, and would draw unnatural attention, making it extremely immodest.
I guess that idea's ruled out.

*sadface*


All right, I'm getting long-winded here. I'm just going to rant a tiny bit more and then get to the point/request.

Lookie here:
http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

Go to Posture/movement.

So... apparently I can't stretch in public. And apparently I can't run in public because running might cause something to bounce. And apparently I have to consider very carefully the way I pick something up off of the ground. And apparently I have to walk a certain way or else some people can't control themselves. Etc.

I'm having trouble believing that the way I reach down for something affects anything, especially because I'm not as attractive as most girls. And if a person is so lustful that they can't control their thoughts because of something so innocent, nothing I do will change that.


Disclaimer: This survey has brought to my attention a lot of things of which I would never have thought. It has helped, but I feel that it's still too subjective for my mind to understand. But I really have to give the Harris brothers much credit, because what they did is so, so, so much more helpful than what most people have offered. :) Thanks, guys!

But, unfortunately, the survey has basically reduced me to t-shirts and baggy jeans.

Okay. That is definitely enough ranting. :)




Tell me what you think about this subject. :)

Guys, do you have any specific guidelines for us girls? Can you assure us that you play the infinitely important role of keeping your thoughts clean? How important is modesty to you - both in the way that you dress (since the idea that no girls are visual is a lie!) and the way that girls around you dress? Do you appreciate our efforts? Is it possible for us to look nice while still being modest?

Girls, what are your standards, as specifically as you can explain them? Do you think that you can be pretty while still dressing in a way that pleases God? And most importantly (because I'm not sure), is anyone else confused about what is modest and what is not modest?

But I think my main, simple question for everyone is...


Can someone please tell me how tight is too tight? *pathetic whimper*

13 comments:

  1. You aren't the only one who is a little confused. How much leg is too much? How much shoulder is immodest? How tight is too tight? At what point is it the guys' responsibility to control their thoughts? If someone you don't know that well tells you an article of clothing is immodest, do you get rid of it? There are some who think the only modest apparel for a woman is a burqa, so does that mean all females must wear them? If one man can't look at a woman's face without lusting, must you cover your own face? How many people--or what people--must think a certain shirt is immodest in order to get rid of it?

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  2. *Exactly*! It doesn't help that modesty really does depend on the culture. I've heard a lot of people say that it doesn't. But showing your ankle is scandalous in India, while even the most modest Americans generally believe that that is okay. Also, it's totally acceptable to show the midriff in India, while here in America, that's almost always condemned by Christians. It's confusing. :/

    It's good to know that I'm not alone, Livi :)

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  3. I am working on a reply. but it's gonna be a long one...do you mind?

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  4. Honestly....in this you can take suggesting from other people(forums and surveys and etc.) But in the end you must listen to what God is telling YOU what is and isn't immodest. Reducing modesty to something like "just something to make sure men don't stare ar you" is not what God meant by modesty. Modesty will be one thing for someone and another for someone else....if you are truly beautiful NOTHING is going to detract that from you.

    When you put on a piece of clothing YOU will fell cinvited by God if the clothing is in deed immodest...you just hve to listen to God..not every person who has his two cents worth.

    Personally,(as a male) I find layering beautiful.

    I would just engourage you by saying to not lean on your(or other people's) understanding,but to listen to God....and thid must be done with all things:)

    and if you mess up....it's okay! Because God will forgive you.

    hope that helps! :D

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  5. Oy vay! So much to say here...but I'll try to squeeze something in before baby needs me. It seems to me that you are not seeking God's approval- you are seeking approval from His very fallible, very flawed, and often hypocritical people. Man has a long history of warping God's word and subsidizing it for his own agenda, and those who claim to know what God would think of your wardrobe should not be heeded. Additionally, there is inherent danger in looking outward for validation and direction- look inwardly and you will know the answer, as God is in you and will guide you.

    Men are very capable of controlling their impulses, regardless of what a woman is wearing. It is their responsibility to keep their thoughts in check, just as it is our responsibility as women to keep our thoughts in check when we see a scantily clad man. Even if we wore burquas, men would still fantasize about what was under them- maybe even more so because more is left to the imagination!

    One thing to consider is how in our country, the media has changed our culture when it comes to women's bodies. The best example of this is society's view of the breast. A hundred+ years ago, the breast was viewed as it should be- the God-given producer of the only food source for infants. Women openly nursed their babies, and it was just as common as today's pacifiers or bottles. Now, God's gift has been degraded and sexualized, so many think that women should not nurse in public, cover up, and wear clothing that doesn't even show the shape of the breast. Yet, at churches around the world, you can see beautiful stained glass and art of Mary nursing Jesus. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8QzS3R1FVk&feature=player_embedded) God, I believe, would be saddened at how His people seek to oppress and control each other because of their own "hang-ups."

    As far as how tight is too tight- I would say if it makes you uncomfortable, it's too tight :) I personally am not comfortable with showing my midriff or wearing short-shorts, but it doesn't bother me when others do. It really isn't my place to judge what anyone is wearing. Trust yourself and your relationship with God and you will be fine :) Love from your cousin

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  7. I don't know what to say, but this is a serious subject and I want to help. This will most likely be a long post, but I hope it offers advice and thoughts for you to consider. Also I'll be specific about stuff (Aka girl post :P).

    First, I would like to say is, Modesty is an art not a science. What's modest for one person may not be for another.

    Second,(Some) Boys/Young guys will just notice what you show because they might of never known not to, and while yet chivalry is most certainly not dead, it may be on its last legs in this area, if it isn't already. (Yes, I hated that last bit.) So I dress in with the mindset that their tempted enough, I don't need to make worse, and if I want to change the tread of treating ladies as meat I need to act differently and show that I'm not content with that. By dressing as a lady, and I'm not afraid of the cost of how much that shrinks my wardrobe- though cute is still esteemed. I firmly believe its possible, in fact, there's a lady at my church who is just a master at what I'm talking about. ^.^ I always love seeing what she's wearing!

    But before I go off in some random way about that, I'm answer the question that you asked me as a young lady. I'll start with standards.

    I don't show my shoulder, but that's mainly because its deeply frowned on by my church, and I don't have a problem with it. Though I wouldn't show to much shoulder due that fact that my Straps are all on the wide side and no one needs to see those! Also I consider where that leads a boy's eye- too much shoulder my lead to them wondering about the bra strap, and younger men may not notice the danger in their thoughts and keep going in wonder.

    Collar- Due to my size I like to keep my collar at the collar bone, though the three finger rule is as as lose as go. I don't want to give a show when I lean over or show anything else of the like.

    Bust area/chest- This is what you mainly expressed frustration at, and not showing your shape. I have experience in both of this areas and I'm going to be blunt about it. (Aka- if your a guy you might/better skip over this bit. I'll tell you when you can jump back in.) You can show your shape without showing. I've got a few of the girls at church convinced that I'm a smaller size then I am. One bluntly told me that I had, and I quote, "small boobies". (She later tried helping my zip up a dress and went something along the lines of 'Wow, your huge'.) I'm a 32DD, and none of them would of ever guessed that. Because I don't where anything that could make me seem larger then I am, most of which include tight clothes, so let me give my thoughts about those.
    Tight clothes to me would be clingy, thin, and (when looking in a mirror) you can clearly go one,two or leaves wrinkles where you don't want anyone but your husband to stare at. They not only show curves but accent them (though if their too baggy same effect). Some patterns and styles do the same while the shirt itself is fine. Perfects shirts in this area are rare and hard to find, I'll admit, I've almost spent hours looking for a nice shirt, but once you know what works and what doesn't it becomes easier. Layering also helps a great deal with this by helping eliminate some of the spots where the shirt might cling to, and also I've a shirt that works but it has a low collar so layering fixes that as well.
    I also where jackets a lot since most of them- and this are a lot easier to find- also don't draw attention to that area as well.
    I wish I had pictures to use as examples, but I don't.

    That's about it for /that/ subject and I probably went on for way to long as it was. If I need to clarify anything just ask.

    (Hi, Guys, Male people safe to join back in now! Hopefully anyways.. >.< )

    Moving on now... (It's telling the post was to long. >.< I'm cutting it into to comments. I'm sorry, I really had no intention to make it that long!)

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  8. (And then I post it twice. >.< *Headdesk*)

    Skirt/shorts length- nothing above the knee. I refuse to show any thigh at all. Back in either Deuteronomy, I believe, it call that nudity. Wondering why? Because think about where that can lead someones thoughts. They may just wonder up your leg.

    Layering- Perfect thing. I'd almost call it manna except it isn't a food! XD As long as you, yourself give no reason for causing someone to think that your just where a layer underneath, because someone told you too, your fine. Its their own business if they jump to conclusions that aren't there, and get judgmental.

    Some more thoughts- these were sparked by the comments you got so far:

    You never know who's struggling on that-this- front, so better safe then sorry. I dress as if my (Future) husband (Whom-I've-never-knowingly-meet) is watching and may come strolling into my life at any moment. I want him to know that even before we started dating, he was at the forefront of my mind, and that no one else could ever lust after me in their dreams without trying.

    Shannon said, "Men are very capable of controlling their impulses, regardless of what a woman is wearing." I wish to disagree. Sort of. Men are able to, but boys don't see reason to, and most 'men' are still boys. I hear one of the things that pastors counsel guys about the most is getting off... um... girly pictures. He might also might not see why! I mean if we're showing-! We don't need to make it worse. So while I believe some before me said it doesn't matter what people think just seek God's will for you- and I certainly don't disagree with that bit. But it does matter what people think about what you wear since that's what makes it modest or not. Aim for something pleases God, and if you can't tell at glance if your outfits does pray about. God likes getting glory, and a I don't think its gotten to where a burka is needed for him to receive it. :P

    Side note: Jewelry- Its an easy way to class up an outfit and make it cute even if its a seems a bit on the plain side.

    Now I think I'll stop before I end up calling this a comment a book on a modesty. :P I hope it blessed you though, and gave some food for thought on the subject! =D (I really hope I didn't sound the least bit harsh! I didn't mean to.:))

    ~ Blueeyedswordmaiden
    All to His glory!

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  9. "When you put on a piece of clothing YOU will fell cinvited by God if the clothing is in deed immodest...you just hve to listen to God..not every person who has his two cents worth."
    You know what's interesting? Lately in Bible bowl, the chapter's we've been studying have a lot to do with the Holy Spirit's leading. God's awesome. :)

    "Personally,(as a male) I find layering beautiful."
    *sigh of relief* XD

    "and if you mess up....it's okay! Because God will forgive you."

    WARNING: Rabbit trail time!
    You know, I don't think that this can be classified as a "mess up" or a sin. The reason being, God can read our minds, and therefore, he knows that we try (if it's true that we do try). :) He respects that, because he is, of course, a loving Father.
    (End of rabbit trail)

    "hope that helps! :D"
    It does :) Thank you for posting!

    "Oy vay! So much to say here...but I'll try to squeeze something in before baby needs me. It seems to me that you are not seeking God's approval- you are seeking approval from His very fallible, very flawed, and often hypocritical people. Man has a long history of warping God's word and subsidizing it for his own agenda, and those who claim to know what God would think of your wardrobe should not be heeded. Additionally, there is inherent danger in looking outward for validation and direction- look inwardly and you will know the answer, as God is in you and will guide you."

    I agree for the most part. While I think that getting advice from wise people is a good idea, what God says is definitely the final say.

    "Men are very capable of controlling their impulses, regardless of what a woman is wearing. It is their responsibility to keep their thoughts in check, just as it is our responsibility as women to keep our thoughts in check when we see a scantily clad man. Even if we wore burquas, men would still fantasize about what was under them- maybe even more so because more is left to the imagination!"

    So, so true.

    What you said about the changing of culture is interesting. It seems like some people have to sexualize everything. So stupid. :/

    It was so awesome of you to take the time to post. :)

    BESM: You have no idea how helpful that was. :) Thank you!

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  10. As a guy, I wanna say thanks for caring enough to even try. A lot of the girls I know don't seem so concerned, or else they just don't realize what a difference it can make. No man is completely SELF-controlled, else we wouldn't need God, and it's really nice when women give us a hand in our hopes for purity. Also, as one of the male persuasion, I will concur with the advice given by BESM, saying that pretty much what she mentioned are the hot-spots of temptation at least the way we're raised in this culture (which I will say yes, modesty is indeed cultural).

    I've never thought or heard that opinion of layering as immodest or whatever. It always struck me as a great solution to the problem of finding modest clothing... though if you're under shirt is only longer on the bottom, it doesn't really do the job, but you're smart enough to figure that out. Also it just looks good. Way more color options :) I like colors.

    Since you asked, as I guy, modesty for me is also important. I've known enough girls to know that it's a myth that they aren't visual at all... how often are girls like "he's soooo cute" and like, checking out the sports stars muscles and stuff. It's definitely a different kind and level of visual stimulation from a guy in what I've observed and heard from professional sources, but it is by no means non-existent and really not that small. I was going to give an overview of what I do, but as I was typing it up, I realized it defeats the purpose of modesty for me to go into much detail on your blog... haha. The main thing for me, though, which I don't see a lot of other guys doing, is I rarely take my shirt off around girls. I was once asked, teasingly, "Are you insecure about your body?" or something along those lines, and I said, "No, it's just modesty." And it's fair, right girls? You can't take your shirt off to go swimming in mixed company, why should I get to? Not saying I have a body that'll make the ladies swoon if I don't keep it under control, but it's just something I feel is important to me, and that God wants of me.

    Wow, I figured that my post would be short, since everything was pretty much covered already (no pun intended)... but here it is. And ya, I know that this blog post is like 3 months old, but I only just found your blog, because I haven't really perused facebook in a long time. I think I'm gonna go read some more of your posts now, but ya, keep it up. You're an awesome person, super smart and fun.

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  11. [quote]The main thing for me, though, which I don't see a lot of other guys doing, is I rarely take my shirt off around girls. I was once asked, teasingly, "Are you insecure about your body?" or something along those lines, and I said, "No, it's just modesty." And it's fair, right girls? You can't take your shirt off to go swimming in mixed company, why should I get to? Not saying I have a body that'll make the ladies swoon if I don't keep it under control, but it's just something I feel is important to me, and that God wants of me.[/quote]

    THANK YOU. :D

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  12. [quote]The main thing for me, though, which I don't see a lot of other guys doing, is I rarely take my shirt off around girls. I was once asked, teasingly, "Are you insecure about your body?" or something along those lines, and I said, "No, it's just modesty." And it's fair, right girls? You can't take your shirt off to go swimming in mixed company, why should I get to? Not saying I have a body that'll make the ladies swoon if I don't keep it under control, but it's just something I feel is important to me, and that God wants of me.[/quote]

    THANK YOU. :D [/quote]

    Indeed~ Thank you~ :D

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  13. Hello, dear HolyPure, I appreciate your honesty. I'm sure The Lord does, too. =) Honesty will bring you to exactly what God wants, which is moderation. Unfortunately, The Bible doesn't tell us exactly what clothing items to wear. =) That would be almost too easy...but it is quite clear that we are to be moderate in all things. A lot of this has to do with personal conviction, as well. As far as how tight is too tight, think of it this way...you need to be covered, but not just covered. You need to be concealed. I could be covered in a form-fitting long sleeved shirt and jeans. But it would show all of my curves. But to wear an attractive, lady like blouse or T-shirt that fits well but doesn't show my underclothing; and a lovely, long, modest skirt that is full enough to not hug my backend is moderate, ladylike and sending out a message to all passer-byers that I take care in my appearance and I love The Lord more than fashion. The word concealed means you can't tell what is underneath it. And as far as the layering thing goes...that is absolutely ridiculous. I wouldn't fancy myself rushing around attempting to make everyone pleased. Layering is one of the main ways I remain modest! So, dear, if you want my opinion, stay concealed in your purity and dress, not just covered. And enjoy your wardrobe! =) Have fun dressing modestly and sylishly. And one last thing: (something my Grammy dear always remind me of, because I sometimes wonder about my clothing, as well.) God didn't make us girls without curves. As my Grammy says, "You have a shape, you know!" =) Don't try to make yourself look like a square. God thinks you are beautiful when you take care to be modest. May God bless you as you choose to dress as an example for Him,
    Most sincerely,
    Miss aMandalin Rochele

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